God Save Us
“As for solutions, other than embracing Jesus Christ as Savior and accepting the guidance of the Catholic Church, explicitly by conversion or implicitly by simply heeding her advice, I see no hope for mankind.” - A Wiser Man Than ITo me this is a disturbing and dangerous comment. Let me elucidate my position.
Religion and Faith are a means to an end, not the end. Faith is a subset of any and all religions. Faith is a glue in society, it pulls and holds people together, but then it sometimes pits those groups of people against each other. I doubt that humanity would be as far along as we are today if it were not for Faith.
Faith is guiding force for many, a moral standard; and for many the only moral standard. However let it be said that there are other moral standards that are not faith based.
Many have used Faith for their own personal gains. Saddam Hussein used Islam for personal gain. The man was never a religious person up until the end of the Iran Iraq war when his power started to wane; then he allied himself with the Sunnis. Hitler used Faith; he used the Jewish people as a scapegoat and rallied the German people against them, to gain power. Thankfully Faith has generally done more good then bad.
Faith gets its power from the people, without followers there is little to Faith. Faith can be powerful on an individual basis, but only for the person who has faith. If power is control, and control nothing but great influence, then Faith inspires people to influence the world in a particular way. When there are a lot of people with the same goal actively seeking fulfillment of that goal then the goal is realized. The catch is that the main three faith’s ultimate goal is extra worldly (i.e. salvation.) Little guidance is given on how to advance humanity in this mortal realm.
Because Faith is a moral standard, and morality is a calming influence on humans, and advancement happens in the calm (but sometimes in turbulence), the advancement of humanity will slowly happen under Faith’s watch. Slowly is too slow, history speaks for itself. Under the Romans humanity made leaps and bounds in technology, philosophy, and infrastructure. When Rome fell humanity lost much of that progress, we reverted to low technology, poor infrastructure, and lost much knowledge, it was called the Dark Ages. It took us more then a thousand years to overcome that little stumble; and only then it was accompanied by a general enlightenment (education) of people, A.K.A. the Renaissance.
Now it might be pessimistic to say, but people are not saved from grave danger nor harm by prayer, Faith, or miracles (at least not very often, if at all.) When in this mortal world we are by ourselves, we must stand on our own two feet, must walk our own path, God does not help us with those mortal things.
I will leave some room for God to tweak the universe but only in the size of the Heisenberg uncertainty principle. The world is natural world, and that prevents God from playing, well, God. If we cannot expect the world to be natural and operate by natural means then we cannot have science, and science in the keystone that holds humanity up; it is what has gotten us to the modern era.
Thus if the world is natural and operates by natural means then it is up to humans to fix the problems that plague us. No amount of prayer or faith will change the world unless we get up and work for that change. Thus to live in the fantasy that the world will change because we believe it will, because we have Faith, will only lead us nowhere. That is where the danger lies; for that which does not change eventually gets replaced, we only need to look at evolution for the proof of that.
posted by MMM at 6:45 PM
4 Comments:
Sorry it's taken me so long to comment. Here goes:
When Rome fell humanity lost much of that progress, we reverted to low technology, poor infrastructure, and lost much knowledge, it was called the Dark Ages. It took us more then a thousand years to overcome that little stumble; and only then it was accompanied by a general enlightenment (education) of people, A.K.A. the Renaissance.
It may come as little surprise to you that I find the common theory that the Englightenment was less than enlightening. For one, it brought slavery, which has been gradually abolished during the so-called Dark and Middle Ages--back into the world. How charming.
I hold the Middle Ages to be the Height of Civilization. I'd suggest reading some Hilaire Belloc.
The world is natural world, and that prevents God from playing, well, God.
This isn't a proof at all, it is simply circular reasoning. Why can't God "play God" in a word which is both natural and supernatural? I don't offer a proof of the miraculous--though there have been any number throughout history which have not been explained by science--but I think your casual ignorance of the possibility thereof is disconcerting.
If we cannot expect the world to be natural and operate by natural means then we cannot have science, and science in the keystone that holds humanity up; it is what has gotten us to the modern era.
Science has gotten us to the modern era all right. It has given us hydrogen bombs, birth control, napalm, more efficient abortion procedures, and so forth. In its illustrious name the Nazis conducted experiments on human beings.
Science is not in conflict with Faith because they govern separate domains. Science tells us what we can do with the natural world; it offers explanations, sometimes even accurate ones, of phenomena therein.
Faith, however, at least insofar as the Catholic Church is concerned, offers a system of morality which Science cannot and should not provide.
Science has made the bomb; Religion occasionally prevents men from using it.
“…Englightenment was less than enlightening. For one, it brought slavery, which has been gradually abolished during the so-called Dark and Middle Ages--back into the world.”
To my last recollection the majority of the population during the Middle Ages were serfs, which were the equivalent of slaves, but with a different name. They were given no education no rights and only rented the land, and then heavily taxed to farm the land that they did not own.
Disease ran rampant medicine non-existent, and what little medicine there was was misguided hoaxes. The Romans knew about sterilization and that it helped prevent disease; though not the driving force of infection, microbes.
“I don't offer a proof of the miraculous--though there have been any number throughout history which have not been explained by science--but I think your casual ignorance of the possibility thereof is disconcerting.”
Actually I did leave room for miracles: “but people are not saved from grave danger nor harm by prayer, Faith, or miracles (at least not very often, if at all.)”
To me miracles are not divine; they are extraordinary moments of mankind. When people are in desperate situations they can overcome them via extraordinary resolve, but natural resolve nonetheless.
“Science has gotten us to the modern era all right. It has given us hydrogen bombs, birth control…”
Yes bad things have been done because science has enabled those things to be done. However I did say that Faith provides morals: “Faith is guiding force for many, a moral standard…” As good as Faith is at guiding people with morals lets not forget that it is corruptible.
“Science has made the bomb; Religion occasionally prevents men from using it.”
Again let me say that Faith is corruptible and thus its use determines whether it is good or bad. “Power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely.”
My point was that Faith as good as it may be is not enough in its own right. It must be used wisely and for good. Faith alone will not deliver Gods kingdom on earth, we mortal humans must work to establish that kingdom or we will not appreciate it if and when it comes.
To my last recollection the majority of the population during the Middle Ages were serfs, which were the equivalent of slaves, but with a different name.
The fact that they had a different name should cause you to re-think that they were, in fact, slaves. Serfs were not basking in liberty to be sure, but they had a simple, and mostly self-sufficient life. In exchange for goods and services to one's Lord, one could live moderately well. Juxtapose this against the heavy rates of taxes we pay to the government for no security, and remember that past court decisions have left our right to own property suspect and you will realize that we may one day hope to have lived as serfs.
[W]hat little medicine there was was misguided hoaxes...
Irrelevant. One may as well blame the Eqyptians for not knowing how to do multi-variable calculus.
To me miracles are not divine; they are extraordinary moments of mankind.
In other words, they are not miraculous. Did Christ walk on water? If not, fine, you deny the miracle, but to attribute his walking to anything short of the miraculous is idiotic.
As good as Faith is at guiding people with morals lets not forget that it is corruptible.
So is everything. But if Faith errs on occasion--and it does so a lot, especially when one has faith in the wrong things--Science can never offer moral leadership.
Faith alone will not deliver Gods kingdom on earth, we mortal humans must work to establish that kingdom or we will not appreciate it if and when it comes.
I'm not a Protestant. Of course works are important, but they must always be guided by Faith.
I agree with you on everything except the name calling and the following:
“In other words, they are not miraculous. Did Christ walk on water? If not, fine, you deny the miracle, but to attribute his walking to anything short of the miraculous is idiotic.”
Early man probably thought the Sun a miracle, they even thought the Sun divine (i.e. Amun-Ra the Egyptian Sun god.) It would have been awe inspiring to those who wondered how the Sun rose in the east and set in the west every day; it might even have been called a miracle. It was also splendid to those who wondered how the sun shines like it does, the wonder lasted well into the 18th century.
So the rising and setting Sun was a miracle until orbital mechanics was understood and the burning Sun was a miracle until nuclear fusion was understood; now it is all science.
I say Christ walked on water. How? We do not yet understand, one day we might. I think Christ’s strides across water are a miracle to us now but one that was enabled by being part God. To be God is to know all, to know all is to fully know and fully understand science.
“Science can never offer moral leadership.”
I hope that it is my inability to communicate that is impeding my message from getting across. I will try to state it as simply and as succulently as I can: Faith is a moral standard which can be one of many that should be applied to solutions that better the world which are enabled by science.
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